RSXting

iTrader: (3)

Good thread

DSMAddicted

Makes perfect sense.

Sounds logical, I'll try that.

In the mean time, here are the videos from yesterday merged into one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0IzXmksc8

Thank you for the help.

axis11

Continuation.

Take note when testing the fan. These fans have the bad habit of sometimes running and sometimes not when they are starting to fail. Sometimes they do run continuously but at slower speeds. You should hear them sucking the air same as what you hear in the radiator fan. If the fan proves to be good, continue trouble shooting the condenser fan circuit. Get yourself a diagram.
Start with the relay,fuse and connectors near the fan.There were cases of these connectors loosing contact for various reasons.

Former User

1) Is 20A hood fuse 35 the fuse that was blowing? (I suspect that this was the original cause of your A/C problem). If so, buy a box of 20A fuses and install the proper fuse in the fuse 35 slot. You risk a fire or a fried electrical system by installing larger than rated fuses. It sounds like the condenser fan is bad, but some tests are needed to verify. For example, measuring resistance to body ground for the fan motor would probably be informative.

2) Did you add refrigerant only through the low side port?

3) Only about half of the required weight of refrigerant has been added to the system.

4) Post gauge readings with the engine idling at 1500 rpm and the A/C and fan running at MAX cool. Also mention the outside temp when the gauge readings are taken.

DSMAddicted

Sound good, will do and report back.

Yes, based on this picture from NOFX's thread (for a DelSol, but diagram looks like mine - #35 right below the 15A ECU fuse):


I did. And note taken.

So, measuring resistance from the negative pin of the fan motor plug to a good spot on the chassis?

Yes. Only low side.

Indeed. I don't recall the exact number (I want to say 17.x oz min, 19.x recommended), but I *was* reading the under-hood sticker on the passenger's side shock tower. I have two 12oz cans. I loaded the 1st one, which had been purged a bit while hooking things up and checking the connections.

Will do.
Can I guesstimate the rpm based on tach (I know mine reads a bit higher), or is there a better "non OBD2" way that doesn't involve connecting a NepTune interface to my P28?

Thanks guys.

Former User

Unplug the condenser fan plug (2P connector with power and ground wires). You want to do two tests from the fan side connector (not wire harness side connector). Set meter to read resistance on the lowest Ohm scale.

1) Touch one meter probe to power terminal and other meter probe to ground terminal. What is the Ohm reading?

2) Touch one meter probe to power terminal and other meter probe to any clean metal area of the chassis. What is the the Ohm reading?

For accuracy, refrigerant is added by weight, not volume. This requires a weight scale to measure the weight of can before and after (or during) refrigerant addition.

For a 93 Civic, I'll assume that the under hood sticky shows specs for R12 refrigerant, not R134a. Not sure if they are different.

Once the fan issue is fixed, you could try warming the R134a can in hot water to speed up delivery to the system.


Yes

DSMAddicted

All I have here at my desk is a Fluke 334, which does measure resistance but doesn't allow to pick a scale. Below are the readings with this unit, as soon as I get home I'll try again with a regular multimiter and report back.

No continuity at all in both cases.
I tested the unit by touching the prongs as well as some grounding spots in my bay and it beeped showing resistance, so I know it works.

I am starting to look at condenser fan motors, just in case. I happen to have two spare Honda fan assemblies at home: one is a radiator fan assembly (92-95 Civic) and the other is a fan assembly from a 3rd Gen Integra (not sure if condenser fan or radiator fan). Do you guys know if any of the motors from these two assemblies might be used to replace mine?

I thought about it while I unloaded the first can, but didn't have a scale sensitive enough. I was under the impression refrigerant could have been added by looking at the gauges as well, so I was planning on adding the 2nd can by watching the readings.

Mine is one of the '93s with factory R134a.

Thank you. I saw that method on YouTube, I'll try it.

Former User

If it has no scale, then it autoranges. Just set it to measure resistance, do the tests, and post the Ohm readings.

Post the actual Ohm readings.

It's critical to recharge refrigerant by weight because if there's a problem in the A/C system, the pressure readings will be aberrant.

DSMAddicted

I wasn't clear. The multimeter did not display any reading. The screen did not change when I tested the fan plug, it was like if I switched to Ohm and let it sit like that. In the case of the Fluke, the display did not change from saying "OL" or something along those lines, which is what appeared when I switched to Ohm.

Same thing with my multimeter at home. It displayed this during both ground tests you asked me to do (display did not change when I tested the fan plug):



Again, to test the multimeter, I checked the two extremities of my Valve Cover ground and it displayed this (flickering between that and "00.0"):



Well, this sucks. Sounds like I'll evacuate and refill.

Lastly... here are the two extra fans I have at home.
If it turns out being a bad fan motor, do you guys know if one of these motors can be pulled and installed in the condenser fan assembly?

Former User

The fan motor is definitely toast. I'm not sure if you can use the pictured fan motors. Maybe somebody else can help with that.

Try this first and see how it goes.

1) Replace the fan motor.

2) You have two 12-oz cans of R134a, right? At this point assume that you have added the advertized refrigerant weight of one can (12 oz). Before adding more refrigerant from the second can, buy a relatively inexpensive digital scale from Harbor Freight Tools so that you can monitor and deliver the proper remaining weight of R134a. Now test whether the A/C blows cold from the vents for 10 minutes, at which time you should measure the high and low side pressures with the engine idling a 1500 rpm.

Here's the weight range of R134a that 96-00 Civic A/C systems take:

Refrigerant capacity: 600-650 g (21.1-22.9 oz)

What weight range is listed under your hood?


Here's a Harbor Freight Tools coupon I received by e-mail this morning:

axis11

Im not sure if the condenser fans from the 6th gen is the same as the 5th gens. I have 6th gen civic and the motors cannot be interchanged. The condenser fan motor has a bigger diameter but slimmer. The condenser is bolted on the fan housing so your housing must fit exactly in there.Remove the old fan and housing to be sure. Just buy a new condenser fan assembly, it doesnt cost so much. It should have been the first item you have bought anyway.

strategy400

Some info:

I purchased the white 5000 gram scale at HF because they didn't stock the 1000 gram one pictured above and it worked ok.

One 12oz. can of R134a holds about 330-340 grams.

I bought a $4 digital probe thermometer at HF and it's been reading occasional 39 degree vent temps (tiny cabin).

My 1995 del sol was spec'd for 500-550 grams and I loaded ~530 in it.

The warm bucket of water and screwing the valve open and closed helps when the can/valve freezes up while charging. Have a roll of paper towels on hand to dry the can to set it back on the scale.

I kept the cans upright throughout the charging process. The gas left the can slowly, about one gram per second, like a clock ticking or even a little slower.

Keep the high side closed on the gauges while charging.

DSMAddicted

Guys,
Sorry for the silence, it's been a busy weekend with limited internet access.

Glad this is confirmed.
I just ordered this. Should be here tomorrow.

Yes, minus some purging (more than I would have wanted). So I am guesstimating I added 10-11oz from the 1st can.

Hehe... I got that same email too. I picked up the scale on Saturday. It's TINY... I mean, wallet sized. So small, in fact, that the guy had to get it from the back since they can't stock the shelves with them because they get stolen a LOT. I felt like Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad while buying the damn thing. Thanks again Ron.

Here's a picture I just took of the decal in my 1993 Civic CX (factory R134a):



So, Ron, based on these (reasonable, I hope) assumptions:

• I loaded 11oz from the first can (assuming 11oz are in the system)
• I lost 1oz from the 2nd can when I first purged it and dealt with it freezing (11oz left in the can - I can weigh a brand new can from the store and compare)

Would it be a safe plan to aim for loading ~8oz of refrigerant (based on weight) from the 2nd can?
Do you have a better strategy in mind?

Thanks for the info, strategy400. Question about this part:
How did you weigh the refrigerant can, exactly? Did you weigh it with the brass tap on top? Did you find that the center manifold line (usually yellow) affected the weighing process tangibly during loading?

Thanks for all the help, everyone.
I'm eager to receive the new condenser fan assembly and continue working on this.

motegicivic

I would weight the empty can and subtract from the full can like a tare weight.

Unless the weight on the can is for the freon and the can itself?

DSMAddicted

Thanks, that's what I am thinking.
I am pretty sure the weight on the can refers to its contents only.

DSMAddicted

for more input to my recent questions.

New condenser fan assembly should be here today.

DSMAddicted

Update: I received the new TYC condenser fan assembly. Looks great, hopefully it will perform well.

I just realized that there's no way I can pull the old fan out from the top without removing the AC lines. I need to take a better look and see if I can do it from the bottom, otherwise I'll have to give up and find a shop to recover the 10-11oz of refrigerant I have in there and put it back when the new fan is in place.

DSMAddicted

Guys,
My apologies for the delayed update.
I managed to get the condenser fan installed without removing the lines.
AC worked "OK" for a few weeks. By OK I mean it would cool down, but not ICE cold.
After a few weeks, it stopped working.

Been so busy I haven't had the chance to look at it until now, so I've been sweating like crazy while in the car for the past few weeks.

Suspecting a refrigerant leak, yesterday I picked up TWO new cans of R134a as well as one of these:



It is actually a very nice tool, I was expecting a much cheaper device.

Here are the manifold readings with engine OFF:


^^^ SAME exact readings with engine ON and AC OFF ^^^

When I turn on the AC on max (recirculation mode), the gauges look like this:



Click here to compare those readings to the ones I posted back in May 30th...

I almost loaded one of the new cans of refrigerant to see, but I contained myself and decided to get your opinion first.

Thank you for your help, here's to a final resolution of the issue and a useful AC troubleshooting thread for reference.

axis11

You are waaaay low on 134a.You sure have a big leak in there. Have it pressurized and find the leak.

Former User

After the A/C is turned off, the pressures on the low and high sides should become equal after about 10 minutes or so. The high side looks about right for static pressure whereas the low side is low. If you leave the A/C off for an hour and then recheck the pressures, are the low and high sides equal?

Vaccum on the low side with A/C on = Clogged or bad expansion valve.

motegicivic

Readings way off with it running on max.

Also, run some dye in the system.

When you installed the components did you use new o rings, did you coat them with a little oil?

Also, do not crank the fittings down, just nice and tight you do not want to crush them.

DSMAddicted

That's what I thought initially, and the reason I got the leak tester.

So should I turn on the car and AC on max with the manifold gauges, turn everything OFF, leave the gauges connected and recheck the reading after an hour?
Please let me know, so I can get back with you on this.

I really, really hope that is not the case. It's a brand new valve and I'd have to pull the evaporator assembly all over again to get to it.

Does the hissing sound everytime I turn off the AC have anything to do with that?
You can hear it in one of my videos from the inside of the car.
It's pretty loud, and clearly coming from the glove compartment area.

I was trying to avoid putting dye, that's why I bought the leak tester, but I will use it if I have to.

Brand new o-rings and yes, dipped them in new PAG46 oil before installing them. My only doubt is whether or not I might have used the wrong size ring somewhere, which would have stretched too much and provided poor seal.

Yes, I am pretty sure they aren't overtightened.

Thanks for the replies guys, please let me know your thoughts.

Former User

Hook up the gauges after the A/C has been off for 15 minutes or so. No need to even turn the engine on for this pressure measurement.

It really sounds like there may have been debris in the system when you recharged it. This debris appears to be clogging the expansion valve.

DSMAddicted

Ok, I'll get that reading this evening when I get home.
I'll run AC on high for the last few minutes of my commute home, park in the driveway and by the time I unload the car and back out with the gauges 15 minutes will have passed by.

Will report back with a picture.

This would SUCK big time.
Are new Expansion Valves ever DOA? Could it be simply a bad one?

DSMAddicted

Allright guys, yesterday I got home way too late.

I just took the reading this morning.

Drove to work, turned on AC on max for the last couple of miles, parked, came back out and got a reading approximately 20 minutes after parking the car (hope that's allright, people stopped me to talk).

Took the reading with engine OFF.